For Breeders and Puppy Buyers: What Is “healthy”?
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Question by Loki Wolfchild: For breeders and puppy buyers: What is “healthy”?
Breeders: What do you consider “healthy enough” to breed? If the sire and dam are vaccinated and receive a clean checkup by your regular vet, do you consider this enough to ensure the puppies will be healthy?
Puppy Buyers: Do you consider “Parents vet-checked and healthy” to be a selling point? Is this the only health check you worry about when looking for a puppy?
Good answers, guys! I just wonder why — if everyone knows about genetic testing — why so many people in this forum defend their decision to breed their 2 dogs with, “both have been checked by my vet and are healthy!”
Look at you go, zach h! Telling me off…how cute is that? LOL!
Best answer:
Answer by Brookie’s mum
Not only should they be vacinated ect… they should be of good quaility (titles, proven). They should have a background of at least 5-7 generations wiith all health information avail. The dog should have a health tested certificate showing the hips,eyes ect…Do not breed pets!!
The Dam should be at least in her second heat or even third depending on her age, the Sire should also be above the age of 2yrs.
Add your own answer in the comments!
From the puppy buyer end, no, a vet check is not enuf. I expect all testing done on the both parents of anything relevant to the breed I am considering. I expect the breeder to have been tracking and following the health of all the litters they have produced over the years as well. I expect them to maintain open communication with all the owners of their puppies so that they can know of any issues, unforseen, that may have come up later on in life.
A vet saying a male and female is healthy to breed just isn’t enuf for me.
HE HE HE. Yeah they do. They think thats worth hundreds of dollars.
One of mine got “vet checked” and vaccines updated yesterday for a whole 33$
as a breeder: parents must be FULLY screened, this included ofa, cerf, hip knee heart, thyroid and liver testing, and then other genetic based on breed.
Its not healthy enough unless its passed ALL those and been given a full clearance by my vet on general health (no worms, up to date on all vacinations ect)
as a buyer, i want a pup, be it show or pet to come from parents who are as closely checked as my own, i look at all the scores as well as pedigree information.
if i wanted just a pet pup and didnt “care” about the parents i would adopt a dog from a shelter…if im spending good money on a pure bred puppy from a “breeder” that breeder must prove themselves worthy of my money by breeding correctly!
Well, obviously the parent’s must be vet-checked and deemed healthy, but I also want to see documents proving that they had their eyes and hips tested, as well as other genetic problems; I also want to know how the grandparents are. I want to speak with the vet for a referral, and obviously the puppies themselves must be clean and healthy.
It’s also important to me that they living conditions of the dogs are all up to my standards, etc. I like breeders who do things with their dogs (like showing or something that may relate to the breed itself – like retrieving or agility, etc.).
Things that raise red flags for me are people who don’t do things with their dogs, people who advertise litters in the newspaper, and people who charge too low.
The dam is severely stressed during reproduction. She should be in excellent health, well exercised, appropriate weight, fully vaccinated, parasite checked………………of appropriate age and not bred in the past year.
The best she can be BEFORE the breeding.
She should have no genetically linked problems.
The male should have a clean bill of health and no genetic problems. His condition does not necessarily be tip top.
Puppies to be sold MUST be fully vaccinated and have at least 2 vet checks.
No puppy should be sold before 8 weeks old. Early removal from mother and littermates can cause socialization problems throughout their life.
I prefer 12 weeks old in the dogs I sold.
show proven perfect speicians that have had all test to ensure they are ready to be breeder, most dogs arent breedin quality dogs there are few out there that should be breed and i am sure if you have to ask about this yours arent breedin quality spay right away!
I would be a puppy buyer. after being on here as long as i have been (which isnt as long as some people) i have come to the conculsion that if i do decide to buy a dog this is what i would ask the breeder(sorry its so long)
1. Are the sire and dam both over two years old?
Yes _________No __________
Both sire and dam should be at least 2 years of age or older and have health clearances. Certification for hips and elbows cannot be done until a dog is at least two years of age. Having these certifications helps limit the chance that your puppy will develop one of these problems. Also some inheritable health problems, such as epilepsy, may not show up until three years of age or older.
2. Do both the sire and dam have health clearances and has the breeder given you copies?
Yes __________No ___________
A reputable breeder should be able to show you proof that both the sire and dam of the litter have had their hips and elbows X-rayed, and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or by one of the following organizations; PennHIP, Genetic Disease Control (GDC), or a foreign registry. They also should have had their eyes examined and certified free of hereditary disease by a veterinary ophthalmologist with the Canine Eye Registration Foundation (CERF) within the last 12 months. The breeder should also be willing to answer your questions about any other possible hereditary problems, including but not limited to seizures.
Here are the website addresses for the OFA and CERF. You can go online and check on an individual dog and his/her clearance status by typing in his/her registration number, OFA or CERF number, and Name (usually registered AKC name which includes the kennel name).
OFA: http://www.offa.org/
CERF: http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html
3. Have you met the sire and dam, has the breeders sent you pictures and references?
Yes __________No ___________
If distance makes it impossible for you to meet the sire and dam then the breeder should be willing to give you references of people who have purchased puppies in the past, names of other breeders, and the veterinarian that cares for the their dogs. Don’t just take the breeder’s word for it that their dogs have great temperaments or look beautiful.
4. Does the breeder only sell puppies that are at least 8 weeks old? Do they provide a health record of the puppy and instructions on care?
Yes __________ No ___________
Most breeders will not take a puppy away from its mother before 8 weeks of age and will permanently identify every puppy, by either tattoo or microchip prior to being placed in its new home. They should also provide a record of vaccinations and de-worming and instructions on care and feeding.
5. Has the breeder given you a 3 generation pedigree and a copy of their contract/guarantee?
Yes __________No ___________
You should be provided with a bill of sale, a 3 generation pedigree, and a contract and/or guarantee. A responsible breeder will guarantee their puppies for any genetic diseases that may occur or against show-ring disqualifications in an animal intended for showing or breeding. The guarantee and/or contract should be absolutely explicit and a signed copy should be provided to each party. A responsible breeder will take back a puppy or dog (no matter the age) if you are unhappy with it. In fact, many breeders will insist that you return a dog to them if you cannot keep it for any reason. Their concern for the puppies they produce does not end when the puppy goes home with you, but lasts for the dog’s lifetime.
6. Did the breeder screen you as a puppy buyer?
Yes __________No ___________
A reputable breeder will ask you questions about what you hope to do with the puppy, where it will live, whether you have a fenced yard, and how you will take care of it. They may also ask you what kinds of dogs you have in the past, and what happened to them. This indicates that the breeder cares for the ongoing welfare of the dogs he or she produces.
7. Do the sire and dam have titles in conformation, obedience, agility, herding, tracking, Schutzhund or other activities?
While a title before or after a dog’s name does not prove anything, it does not suggest that the dog has both the ability and temperament to excel in a given activity. Titles also suggest that the breeder is active and interested in the world of purebred dogs that they are breeding for a purpose, not simply to make money.
8. Does the breeder know the breed well?
Yes __________No ___________
A responsible breeder will know the breed. They will know about the health and temperament problems that exist in the breed. They will be able to talk to you about the energy level of these dogs and help you determine if this is the right breed for you. An experienced breeder will also know how to recognize certain traits in individual puppies that will help him or her match the right puppy to the right home.
if the breeder cannot answer these without hesitation then i would find another breeder
If I were to by a puppy from a breeder not only would I want heath check of the parents but also a family tree listing where they came from. I would expect illness prone to that breed to be breed out ( I know there is no guarantee but thy helps) I would also want both parents to be of champion quality and proof.
I don’t consider this nearly enough. Every breed has it’s health problems. Unless both sire and dam have been screened for them, these dogs aren’t healthy enough to breed, in my opinion, no matter how good they look. In addition to that, checking the pedigree for known health problems is important. For example, hip dysplasia is poly genetic, so even if the parents are OFA excellent their puppies could be dysplastic. If you know that there have been several generations clear of HD, you have a better chance of having puppies with good hips. Also, the reason good conformation is important is that sound structure gives good movement, which reduces wear and tear on the joints and reduces other injuries caused by poor movement. Proper head structure contributes to proper bite and eye structure. If either one of these is incorrect the dog may be more predisposed to eye or dental problems. Ultimately, the basis of most breed standards is to produce a dog with the structure to properly do it’s job. I just don’t consider a dog “healthy enough” unless all of these points are taken into consideration. In addition, you have to look at temperment, since mental health is as important as physical health in both working dogs and companions. A dog that is shy or overly aggressive is not “healthy” or happy, and their puppies may not be either.
I wont breed a dog until its pennhip and OFA at two years of age. I have eye, heart and other congenital disorders ruled out. Healthy is also a dogs mental makeup. Disposition should aways be a major concern. Yes they need regular vet checks and shots but, there is MUCH more than that.
I am NOT a breeder so I cannot speak from that point of view, but, I am a buyer and I can speak about that.
I want the parents to have had all health checks, meaning that they have been x-rayed and have had all tests done for their particular breed. I need to see healthy hip and elbow certifications with at least a good, preferably an excellent rating. I need to see that going back 5 generations there were no major issues with any of the dogs there, especially in the hip and elbow areas.
I need to see that both parents have been proven in the working field of their choice with scores that are good enough to warrant a breeding and because I am anal, I want to see that they have reached the highest possible level in that field otherwise I would be wondering if they were good enough to do it or not. I also want to see that the 5 generations in that pedigree had also achieved high scores in their competitions as well.
Most important, however, I need to see clear heads in both the parents and the puppies. They should be bomb-proof regardless of what is going on around them.
All that is of course on top of the other, general things one looks for in a dog. I pay good money for my dogs and I expect a lot in return, I have very specific parameters and I do not like to deviate too much from them as far as what i am looking for.
I personally adopt but I always tell people to physically check the parents paperwork for AKC registration with pedigree not CKC or KC registrations becuase those don’t have adequate standards for breed health guidelines. In fact KC registrations will register any litter including mixed breeds. Check the health check paperwork for the parents and pups. Physically check the pups for health issues themselves including ears, eyes, nose, coat and skin, toes and pads, mouth and teeth, anus, and genitals. Make sure the dog is free of infections rashes, fungus, and any other abnormalities. I also advise against buying from people who kennel their dogs instead of allowing close supervision of the pups within their house. Make sure the pups have been vaccinated, dewormed, had health checks, and that the breeder is not selling them before 10 weeks of age. The breeder should give you a guarentee on hips and joints and offer a return policy if for some reason you can not keep the dog. If they do not offer these two things I would be very concerned about the dogs health and the breeders ethics. You also want to leave the breeders with all the pups veterinary records papers for registration and a copy of the parents registration for verification. Follow-up with the dogs regulare vet at least once prior to switching vets so that they can inform you of any concerns they noticed that might not have been explained by the breeders. There is more to look for when it comes to buying a dog and breeding one and most people think shots and deworming are good enough but in reality it is far from. Anyone who does not provide proper health checks is just another backyard breeder or puppy mill owner.
I’m a breeder, I consider dogs healthy enough to breed after OFA/CERF testing has been done. All breeding dogs should be up to date on vaccinations/worming, and found to be in good general health. A vet exam alone just isn’t enough.
As far as buying a puppy from someone else I’d ask about genetic testing on their puppy parents. I’d insist on seeing written proof. I want to see at least the mother of puppies, & the sire if they own him. To see their temperments & to see if they meet the breed standards. Ask them about their vaccination schedule/worming schedule,talk to their vet & previous puppy buyers. I want to read over their contract, before buying. I don’t want the puppy vet checked just by their vet , but mine as well.
Great questions. When I buy a puppy I look for health certifications on both the sire and dam. I’m partial to Boxers so I look for Holter monitor results for the heart,OFA for hips and thyroid test results.Each breed has it’s own protocol for what should be tested for genetic weaknesses.
What you have mentioned above sounds like what a back yard breeder would offer.
As a breeder, healthy, to me means both sire and dam are health tested, blood tested, temperament tested, on the standard… Health of the pups goes from before they are conceived to the end of their lives. Dam gets extra vitamins before the breeding ever occurs and continues to get them throughout her pregnancy up to weaning (special care for her follows). Pups are checked over as soon as they hit the ground.
For me health is not enough. I want my dogs to be the best possible example of the breed, including their working ability.
Excellent question.
Uh, Zach…do you know who you’re talking to?
Excellent q Loki, as always. I like the perspective you’ve taken on it- to get answers from both sides. Doesn’t look like you’re getting any from the BYB’s though, does it?
I can’t add much here. I’m a rescuer, not a breeder, and every dog I’ve ever had has been a rescue. I will add though, that good rescues and fosters have their dogs screened and tested for problems associated with the breed- ie: hip dysplasia in Shepherds. No dog is adopted out without prospective owners being made aware of health issues.
In this way, even if the original BYB did a bad job producing the dog, we rescues can help a little with rehoming by being on top of the medical issues.
Thanks for the good work. : )
My puppys parents were health checked, but I do not care for papers.
I saw that her mother was active and bouncing around like a mad thing, with healthy looking bones and bright eyes. Her farther wasn’t moving as much, but when the breeder got him to stand up he appaeared healthy as well. His coat was much better than the bitches, the colour was deeper and it was shinier not that Pippins (the mother) wasn’t. The pups were all very active and quite sneaky, not like a few other litters I’d seen. One even tried to run up the stairs when nobody was looking.
Rambling now.
I liked the fact that the breeder was so attached to the puppies, the house was clean, and the mother was so active and strong considering just a few weeks ago she was feeding her pups.
I don’t think vaccination certificates, KC reg and champion ancestry matters, they’re in the cupboard, not the animal I love. The gut feeling you have when you’re holding that puppy is what you should act on.
Sorry, I don’t think I answered your question.. had a bit of a flash back to the day we got our dog (:
Because the only people who bother to answer questions like this are the educated ones who have a clue. The clueless ones go blithely about breeding mutt to mutt to create a race of supermutts destined for the euthanasia room of the nearest shelter.
Now to answer the first part of your question, I would learn the genetic testing protocol as recommended by the breed’s parent club, and only consider buying from a breeder who has done the proper testing.
They do need to be vet checked, but that isn’t the end all..dogs need to have genetic testing..OFA/PennHip, CERF/PRA, Thyroid, etc…. as well before they are considered for a breeding program.Even that isn’t enough, thorough research also must be done into the pedigree for at least 4-5 generations for health, longevity and breed standard.
As a buyer vet checked and healthy is not enough..I want to see proof of genetic testing having been done and passed.
To hear that a dog is “healthy enough” doesn’t sound good to me. I would want to hear that the dog is “completely healthy”. To breed a dog you should consider its family tree, get a pedigree certificate showing the family tree and find out if they had any bone, hip, or health problems. These things could show up in your dogs offspring. Also, check for any genetic problems that their parents had. If an animal is free from parasites and isn’t too old, then it would be considered helathy enough, but most people should want more than that. Get the pedigree info and find out about any genetic problems in its family tree.